Religious double talk. Todd had 6 children living at home at the time he was gifted the home.. Unsure why he is getting criticized for living in a house that is experiencing uber appreciation b/c of the school district it resides in. The man and his wife were Watermark members. You might want to check out this site Or evasion? May 28, 2006 — -- A female member of the Watermark Community Church, . Wagner has always surrounded himself with yes men. I merely want to get the facts out on the table. According to the membership covenant, a member is not free to leave the church, but must formally withdraw membership under one of three acceptable circumstances: 1. Why all the allusion? I wonder what is considered a humble enough lifestyle to please all the rest of us looking in and offering our opinion about something we probably do not know enough about Still havent found a church I like since. I dont know if I am over-reacting when Todd made a off the cuff remark about taking his wife some where last week where she could be warm. obey your leaders? that is, if we keep Jesus Christ as part of the equation, with an understanding that more is incumbent on leaders than on others. Most people in the U.S. have a lavish lifestyle compared to most believers around the world. Watermark Community church says it relies on this New Testament passage to justify its policy of disciplining members: "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. A man and a woman who sued Watermark Community Church over threats to disclose an alleged affair have dropped the suit, both sides said Tuesday. Darren, I was thinking about this a little more think about the language you use explaining how elders are held to a higher standard doctrinally speaking. A Texas appeals court will decide whether the Watermark Community Church went too far in its attempt to save a church member's marriage. Also resigned is David Leventhal, an elder and teaching pastor at Watermark, who said he had lost trust in Wagners leadership. I am a former Watermark member. It is mentioned in this article. We've put together a list of some ways . Staff. Get new articles and breaking news delivered to your inbox. My perception is this former member did take their concerns to leadership. Prestonwood Baptist also made the list (top 20) and its nowhere near a cult. Im only surprised it took 15 years. Spiritual authority has nothing to do with title, education, or rhetorical ability (2 Cor 10-13). XPastor recommends readers take special note of the resources provided by Watermark about the issue of Care and Correction. Maybe Im straining at a gnat. even so, i think its patently obvious that living as the 1% by 1st world standards, even in part, is lavish by any and all standards. It took a tremendous amount of courage for this person to come forward and tell their story, for fear of reactions like yours. Its gotten popular which makes me suspect. He walked with an air of superiority that was disgusting. The level of absurdity is a bit high here Im a member, not once have I been asked to fork out my money, not once have I been forced to makeRead more . Watermark Video: Women's Channel 8y ago Regardless Lords will be done Prov 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. Todd was put on sabbatical to reflect about his proud attitude. Also, any comments with profanity, name-calling, and/or a nasty tone will be deleted. Outsourced: How Watermark Community Church Fails in Caring for Its Members, The Spin Cycle Watermark Community Church Members Unlikely to Ever Know the Truth Behind Resignations, Before You Sign: What You Need to Know About Membership Covenants, Making the Cut What Does It REALLY Take to Become a Member at Watermark Community Church, Dallas Megachurch Pastor Todd Wagner Resigns, Cites Pride as the Reason, https://www.watermark.org/about/governance, OUR COMMUNITY SERIES: Being Lonely in a Group of People | To Love, Honor and Vacuum, Leaders trying to drain members in order to live exorbitant lives. Are you familiar with the website, No Eden Elseware? Regardless we know Romans 8:28 maybe its a season of 2 Tim 3:16-17. Im heart broke and still excited to see what Lord and how He is going to carry out this. Does anyone know if the Re:Engage marriage program that Watermark started is worthwhile? John Doe's attorney says his client is now considering a civil lawsuit against the church for slander.7 2 doctrinal statements create confusion over authentic belonging. Log In. Another requirement for membership is that you find an area in which to serve in the church. Set up and configure your eSignature workflows the way you want them. The preacher they were to install couldnt preach well. Some titles of articles written about Watermark Church. When this article was written, But, you provide NO evidence, NO situations Todd gave me support and comfort during a rough time in my life, and I will be FOREVER grateful. Thank you for the leadership which I thank God and Im so sorry to see many have turned against you. Im still waiting for more transparency but doubt we will get if from Wagner as that pride runs deep. In principle it was excellent. The Dallas ISD board of trustees approved the sale in late August; records show Watermark paid $211,000 for nine acres of building and bare land off Second Avenue a steal, no matter the. i dont believe a word he says. Love you Todd There was one guy that didnt want to shareRead more . I just loved his style of preaching. I dont think so. If I was a member of this church my motivation for remaining or leaving would be almost entirely based upon trying to figure out what happened in an effort to understand if the leadership is healthy or unhealthy. Paul, thanks for the response. The Judge overseeing this case is TAPSCOTT, KEN. Another $ maker? John Doe's attorney says his client is now considering a civil lawsuit against the church for slander. All of the years I attended Kanakuk I had awesome and incredible counselors except for Todd. On 05/28/2008 THE STATE OF TEXAS filed a Property - Eminent Domain lawsuit against WATERMARK COMMUNITY CHURCH. Our mission is to Love God, Love People, and Serve the World. seems to me median, or less, is reasonable (relative to the community where the church exists). +++++++++++++++++. a smarmy, unctuous reply. Wagner founded Watermark in 1999 with the expressed purpose of ministering to "the unchurched, dechurched, dead-churched and unmoved." The church grew rapidly and now has campuses in Dallas, Frisco, and Plano. This was the same concept as we moved on to adult Sunday school. Get eSignature workflows, document management, and business process automation with the airSlate Business Cloud. I first visited Watermark in 2005 when they were still meeting at a high school in Dallas. so what. I wish he was still there and I know I would be living nearby and attending with spirit filled days and nights studying what he preached. Appreciate your response! Maybe because I have not had a negative experience with elder rule I do not see it as a problem. What you need to know about Church Membership Covenants., The Aftermath: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members, The Aftermath Part II: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members, Family Ties: How Watermark Community Church is Alienating Families. utterly un-credible. Readers write about Watermark Community Church's stance on gays, Ken Paxton suing Brownsville, black lives also matter, Michelle Obama and Dallas Stars fans. . Churches that utilize a confession like the Westminster, 1689, or the 39 articles seem comfortable requiring specificity in their doctrine for both members and pastors I think this is more transparent, and thus healthier, than having two statements. Does anyone find this highly hypocritical? Prestonwood Baptist also made the list (top 20) and its nowhere near a cult. Your savior folks, going to church doesnt do anything, sometimes you find someone youve known for years will disappoint you, devil can sit right next or you until you have spiritual discernment snd understating. If I thought I couldnt work with someone I wouldnt be turning around and working with them. God has allowed the clarity and conviction that I need to not leave a snarky comment, to dry up.. By our measure our savior Jesus was a total and complete failure. And, have peace and unity. File photo of fans at a Dallas Stars . Wow! Per Todd Wagner I was not the right person or the right fit or whatever he thought. So Leventhal resigned several weeks before Wagner, but theyre announcing this together, on the same day? Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. I am certainly not an atheist and am a regular church attender. Usually blood in the water attracts sharks, but nothing that fierce here, just a bunch of blood sucking remoras. Its all sunshine and roses till you see it firsthand. Im also a bit a sad with respond of David (elder) who is in the leadership role to show the love with staring at the congregation (may be because of challenges). If the things she claims were stated from the pulpit are true, there should be plenty of documentation. Where appropriate, upon request,. I have edited some of her answers for content and length. I highly recommend that you watch the video, because if you watch it with just the tiniest bit of scrutiny, you will notice Todd Wagner work some word-magic here. Life Stage Care and Recovery Equipping Outreach Serve Community Groups. Just the congregationhmmmmmm.. It definitely wasnt the first thing that we did (nor was sharing our life maps, as *Susan* said was her experience). Watermark was founded in November 7, 1999 with an outward-focused ministry that sought to minister to "the unchurched, dechurched, dead-churched and unmoved." [1] Watermark averages about 9,000 weekly attendants. So I canceled my move. I cannot imagine that Jesus, given all options, would choose to live among the wealthiest citizens in the most landscaped, luxurious part of the city. Both of these practices are, in my opinion, unhealthy. 5,280 were here. If you dont want to be a member at Watermark you dont have to be.Read more , There is a difference between positional authority and spiritual authority. Leventhal doesnt seem very interested in this whole thing Wagner appears attentive during Leventhals speech but Leventhal seems stand-offish toward Wagner. It is very helpful and lets us plan financially well. And then they agree to work on the same board? Could just be their abilities to appear a certain way up in front of a crowd. If I had to guess the Sr Pastor Todd agreed to leave if the concerned pastor Steve agreed to resign. Thats for God to reveal or conceal.. Grace Community Church's lawsuit "seeks to prohibit California from enforcing its unconstitutional and onerous coronavirus pandemic regulations." Link copied Aug. 14, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC Thats the other dallas todd wagner who is mark cubans partner. Considering thatRead more , Dave It is disingenuous to minimize someone elses experience just because you did not witness it yourself. Before coming to Watermark, I never knew the Bible could be applied to my life. **THEIR shepherds** to verify your name calling., Which of the victims of It appears to attract a fairly high income crowd if their building program is any indication of the amount of money coming into the church. It sounds like maybe you want Todd to fall in line with the way you think things should be instead of what is biblical. Then there is the whole LakeRead more . I know him on a first name basis, as I do some of those elders on the stage. Theyre all using so much jargon that its hard to figure out what any of it actually means. Not in your writing, but in the people who felt that they were being personally attacked and never took the time to speak to a leader or to actually consider the teachings that are found in the Bible. Its ridiculous to give issue for a house he lives in, that he himself didnt purchase. -. Not to gotcha, but I just want to set the record straight that the gift tax doesnt make it unrealistic that Todds family was gifted that house. THAT is what these people are afraid of. While God does allow humans to have free will, His greatest gift to every human is salvation and eternal life, through believing that He sent His son as a sacrifice for our sins. No longer fulfill the requirements of membership. Wagner was tearful during his speech in the video Sunday. I am praying for you in San Diego CA. That church is huge and has 2 campuses (at least) so I find it hard to believe you even know these elders yourself. Todd could use he had no use for you. Definitely they are important to Christian theology, but they fall within a spectrum of orthodox third-rank doctrines. Ashley Ruiz alleges in a lawsuit that a member of the International Churches of Christ sexually molested her when she was . You guys can rip apart our church and Todd all you want, but I know him, and you wont find a man with more of a heart of gold than him. Thanks for giving up the last word. But, a money maker? It sounds like people from the church may have gotten some things wrong, but I know so many people that haveRead more , Pdiddy The taxes ALONE on the house Todd lives in are over $30K a year, which is probably the salary of some WM staff members. I keep coming back to this because something just doesnt seem right. It was meant to jerk everyones chain. Just checking out the church and looking at the background info the house has tripled in value since the Wagners bought it 20 years ago hardly a 7 figure home when purchased. Does God want everyone to be broke? I have nothing to hide, and sharingRead more , As an ex-Watermark member (8 years), and former CG leader (6 years), I can say unequivocally that I had no problem sharing my financial information with my guys. After hearing Todds sermon, I left the building thinking pride comes before the fall will be evidenced in that man someday. So recent events are unsurprising to me. At the beginning of each year our membership goes to zero. So, if they can sell their copyrighted material, that is just the same as authors getting paid for their writing or bible study writers selling their studies in bookstores. Several weeks after Leventhals resignation, Wagner separately decided to step down as senior pastor and elder, the churchs statement said. What a bizarre statement. He found my blog while researching the similarities between Scientology and Watermark Church. A pastor or elder does not automatically have spiritual authority due to his position in a church. On the cult thing: LIsten to this longer presentation from a high school ministry event. (although my personal view is a modest lifestyle is best for all, and all things considered,). We could look to God's Word for the answers. As per usual, all white and all males. If youre short on time, start at 27 minutes when the speakers starts explaining why people think Watermark is a cult. Thats a new one on me. We did one a week, so this stretch over several weeks. Your tax-deductible gift helps our journalists report the truth and hold Christian leaders and organizations accountable. Before I get into the first story, I want to lay some groundwork to help my readers understand how the structure of community groups at Watermark Church works. Messages; You CANNOT, however, attempt to withdraw membership to avoid church discipline. If you challenged him or the church you were quickly dismissed. In January, Wagner returned from leave to preach his first sermon and received a standing ovation from the congregation. Im happy to answer any questions, but you need to know this is absolutely wrong information. In some ways this reminds me of the CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace debacle. if servant leadership plus Jesus Christ means anything, it logically using financial means to serve others. No its not. I think I have a pdf copy of a ten year old one. Worth 1-2 million. If a member doesnt leave in good standing, WM will pursue that person and enforce church discipline. I take at face value Susan has hurt and I feel compassion for her. You may be thinking of a different Todd Wagner, who is a longtime partner of Mark Cuban. I verified it. Why do you throw a stone (more likely without looking at yourselves first). Susan felt it was ironic that I had made a comparison between Scientology and Watermark Church, because she said those same comparisons helped her realize that she was not in a healthy church. It is Lord that gives and takes it away. Sure, lets not address anything that is rumored to be strange about Watermark and say that Jesus sounded cultish. I was a messed up kid at that time and Todd was the worst counselor ever. however, since evangelical leaders have redefined gossip to mean dont rock the boat to protect their power, careers, and revenue, can you explain what you mean by gossip? Todd was my counselor at Kanakuk Camps for a summer. Todd had 6 children living at home at the time he was gifted the home. Better to have one doctrinal statement that unites both members and elders in my opinion. Its clear as mud. Jesus is is merely a mascot and a marketing word. Agreed. This would be Cabo and in the middle of the worst weather tragedies that Dallas has seen in decades. And this is important. Yes WM hides abusers and minimizes victims. Todd Wagner, the embattled pastor of Watermark Church, a Dallas multisite megachurch with a pre-pandemic congregation of 20,000 people, has resigned his position as senior pastor and elder. Author: this is unequivocally WRONG. Sounds like the perfect target for attack, I was looking at Watermarks governance section on its website and two things stuck out to me: 1) they have 2 doctrinal statements, one for members and one for elders and 2) they are Elder-Rule, Elder-Led. Evangelical Church. IfRead more , Adding to people in good standing who have zero knowledge of any discipline issues also fear leaving due to verifiable stories where watermark members have harassed and stalked people for leaving in cases where the person leaving has come to realize the place at its core is Not what is represented on its surface and middle layers. the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. BUT are now returned to I went through the Re:Engage program twice early in its development. He could have sold the house when it was gifted to him, bought a home more in line with a humble servant leader, and donated the additional proceeds to the church. If not? If by community you mean meeting with like-minded individuals to foster friendships & develop relationships then great. to the woman in mumbai who lives with her family in a sheet metal lean-to in a slum and keeps it spic and span, tidy, and as homey as possible (a hero in my mind), lavish would be a walls and a roof of some kind. Hes definitely not perfect, but he is a good and Godly man who preached the gospel boldly and consistently. My soul was touched. https://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/five-reasons-to-say-no-to-church.html, Jer 50:6 Perfectly said Scottie. He is a restorer and a life giver, even as we ALL come to him seeking forgiveness. i expect someone who represents Jesus Christ in a leadership capacity to live in accordance to Jesus message on money and wealth. Just because you have not experienced or witnessed the things that happened to the person who told their story that I featured in this post, does not mean those things did not happen. Its how relationships are formed and accountability is established or thats what they want you to think. There are no congregational votes nor do individual members have a 'say' in how things are handled. I covered this in my previous post, When Is a Church Member Fair Game, referencing a case of church discipline that Watermark carried out publicly against one of its members. Once your account is created, you'll be logged-in to this account. But please make sure your referencing the right guy. The only fees were for the materials we used. In my opinion, its best to have the teaching statement serve as the unifying statement that covers both members and elders, so that those who attend and who are working through their beliefs dont prematurely sign a membership covenant that in reality places them under the pastoral authority of elders who adhere to the teaching statement. The Bible says in Hebrews 4:13, Nothing in all creation is hidden from Gods sight. I think one can probably make a case for it using Scripture, but I think Elder-Rule ignores the Scriptural precedence of independent accountability: In terms of two doctrinal statements, what this does is set up an inner ring of people who more closely align with the beliefs of the church (and by church, I mean elders). First and foremost- this is a season that God is shaking things up. I am not sure what is wrong with elder rule since it is biblical. I dont have an extensive history with Wagner but several of my closest friends say that they saw this same controlling, egotistic behavior back in the 1990s when he came to Dallas to lead a high school group called K Life. To demand that a victim produce evidence is a form of revictimization. The whole situation reeks of status and power, neither of which is a good look for a pastor. How many times have you actually talked to Todd? Thats not true. When I was 17, I started attending church regularly with my boyfriend (now husband) in high school, and we would go to Sunday School. It is the Lord Jesus who is in control after all folks. Even through this challenges we can be so judgements these day. no one was threatening him he deliberately chose to live as the 1%, say yes & accept it, move in and make it his home. R.w. Secondly he says that even Jesus himself said things that might be considered cultish: If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26. WM hides abusers and minimizes victims. There is a filthy rich entrepreneur whose name is Todd Wagner. So you either choose to remain by completing the 4b questionnaire or you are no longer a member, [] a greatexample of unsafe community groups which verge on cults. Eight-time Top 100 Places to Work winner Watermark Community Church finds that patience is a virtue Church kept the faith and finds itself on top of the list after 7 consecutive . I have no doubt there are many many more victims. There are 2 Todd Wagners in Dallas. I wonder what is considered a lavish lifestyle. indoor plumbing plumbing would be a luxury. TODD WAGNER SURELY LED ALOT OF PEOPLE TO CHRIST. To donate, Pastor of Dallas Megachurch Dogged by Allegations of Spiritual Abuse Announces Hes Taking a Break, https://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/five-reasons-to-say-no-to-church.html, Vineyard Pastor Resigns, Wont Cooperate With Probe Into Sons Alleged Misconduct. Thats for God to reveal or conceal. He added that there are just too many layers and that even Friedrich and Thompson land at a different place than (Leventhal and Wagner) regarding why weve arrived here., Both Wagner and Leventhal will remain at Watermark as elders emeritus, though the church said it is proactively pursuing men to add to the Elder team., According to the church website, Wagner and Leventhal will spend time with their families preparing for whatever the Lord has next.. Its where two or more are gathered not where two or more thousands are gathered. in ones own city or metropolis, for starters. He began to consider that he was in a cult. Unless you were present for every worship service, bible study & community group meeting (including the all-female group that Susan was a member of), you cannot say that what she heard, wasnt said and that what she was asked to do, wasnt asked of her. Scripture also says live your neighbor as yourself.folks many of you here have already missed that mark. The womans story you shared sounded like her personal interpretation of events that has no factual evidence to back it up.. We areRead more . If you (as some I bet arent producing fruits but first one to take a shot at his house, cars and family. Todd uses God to accomplish his goals ofRead more , We briefly visited WM; I quickly told my husband, this place is the cult of Todd and will implode without him. Thats not Todds fault, but no thanks. I am a CFP and I dont see how the gift tax is relevant in this instance. Sounds like something Whoopie Goldburg would say. Watermark Church Lawsuit. The only thing I can discern between the lines is that something went very wrong. These resources are found in Appendix V and Appendix VI at the end of this case study and in the clarifications given by Watermark in the section Watermark's Response to the Nation. Church leaders concealed sexual abuse of young children, lawsuits allege. Products. The only remaining elders at Watermark are Mickey Friedrich and Kyle Thompson, though a third man, Blake Holmes, has been named a candidate for eldership. Our church does Re-engage and we love it. business Top 100. Let me guessthe PASTORS of this church DONT have to be real and disclose THEIR salaries, sins, struggles.right???? to the homeless person in Dallas, it might be a hot meal and a warm bed, a job, eventually a home of some kind (a room to call their own, a studio, an apartment,). I also know of churches that do not use this model that are both healthy and unhealthy. You live by Elder-Rule, you die by Elder-Rule. 4774 square feet also poor stewardship unless hes raising 8 kids or something. What Happens Now? Im not saying that the Watermark Todd Wagner lives in a shack, by any means. Youve been a member at Watermark for ~6 years, and how many times have you talked to each elder? He confirmed Leventhals statement that the two are at peace and are in community together.. All white and all men has nothing to do with anything. And so have I. This is absolutely nothing like a Joel Osteen situation. There are also a lot of factors that go into measuring ones wealth, not just the dollar value of ones house; and there are a lot of things that go into measuring ones character, other than how much money one has or the kind of house one lives in. I have no comment on the Cabo thing; but I will say, the church was opened to anyone and anyone during the snowstorm, event the kids playhouse for children to play. If you call Christ a savior then learn to make Him I canRead more , I can tell you that I know Todd Wagner personally over 20 years ago. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. When he stepped into an executive pastor role a few years back he didnt like that his replacement (JP) was more poly than he was so he didnt allow him to pastor/lead. Pastors often receive the most judgement and its rarely considered that they likely face the most spiritual warfare. Christian Rocker Posts Stunning Response to Recent Apostasy of Christian Leaders, Chicago Radio Host & a Former Bodyguard Say James MacDonald Asked Them to Arrange Murders, James MacDonald Took Millions from Harvest & Now Demands Broadcast Ministry, Mancow Airs Shocking Comments By James MacDonald: My Response. For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God., Wagner also warned the congregation with words from the passage, stating that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and from your own selves men will (rise up), speaking perverse things. Then, modifying Pauls description of his three years spent in Ephesus to Wagners 22 years at Watermark, Wagner added, Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of 22 years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears., The congregation at Watermark responded to Wagner with a standing ovation. . Gotcha. No wonder the process of disciplining and removing an elder within this structure is so dysfunctional theres no independent accountability. Visit us at 9:30 or 11:00 am CST on Sunday . Of course, God has a very different definition of success than we do. 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